Sharon Berg Interviews Blair Stonechild

(University of Regina Press, 2024)

Blair Stonechild

Sharon Berg:      First, please allow me to thank you for carving time out of your schedule to do this interview, Dr. Stonechild. I hope that our interaction here will interest people in reading your book because it focuses on such an important issue--ecolization as opposed to civilization.
 
I spent many years studying with Cree Elder Pauline Shirt, the founder of Wandering Spirit Survival School (1976, Toronto). You lay out a similar foundation for your position in Challenge to Civilization to one that Pauline employed. In addition to gathering a broad knowledge of Indigenous cultures from around the world, you’ve studied the foundations for both Western and Oriental cultures. In fact, you point out the assumptions re: Indigenous cultures made through the terms ‘civilization’ and ‘progress’ are problematic due to an inherent bias they hold against Indigenous worldview.
 
Following the rise of the Civil Rights Movement in the USA during the 1960s, many non-natives protested the governmental stand on First Nations and turned to various Indigenous Elders seeking a better way forward. Clearly, this movement didn’t take hold permanently. I wonder if you see a similar wave of interest in First Nations worldview (especially since the arrival of Trump as USA president) which points toward a recovery of balanced and reciprocal socio/political and environmental relationships in the future?
 
Blair Stonechild:       In the 1950s I was in Indian residential school watching cowboy and Indian movies on television. The overt portrayal of killing Indigenous peoples is hard to believe, but the fact that this is rarely seen any more would seem to indicate that something has changed in public consciousness. The social changes of the 1960s and 1970s have gone a long way towards the acceptance of Indigenous peoples’ legitimate social and cultural issues. Much more control over communities, education, culture and policies is now in the hands of our people. However, the ‘Make America Great Again’ movement and election of Donald Trump reveals that that the dynamics that drove the usurpation of Indigenous lands and oppression of Indigenous culture are still very much alive. There has been a strong progressive element of society that strove to recognize and honour the legacy of Indigenous peoples, and they produced a great deal of literature and media that raised public awareness. But it is now apparent that that awareness was never widespread enough to bring about changes in the mainstream of society. In particular, the Indigenous values and spiritual philosophy that ensure an ongoing healthy relationship with the environment are still only barely understood. The ‘American Dream,’ which is essentially to extract from the land as much financial and material prosperity as possible and as quickly as possible, is the antithesis of the way Indigenous peoples approached the land. So, while there has been a wave of interest recently, it is far from enough to successfully restore balanced social and environmental relationships, let alone understand Indigenous worldview. It will take far more engagement by the general public for that to happen.
 
SB:      Challenge to Civilization stresses the importance of a spiritual relationship with our environment, something which is antithetical to the concept of civilization for many members of modern-day society. My studies in education discovered there is often a great resistance to change, even among the groups asking for that change, as it predicts an upheaval in relationships. Can you explain briefly, the link between a lack of relationship to the natural world in modern day and a controlling governmental relationship with people external to one’s group of origin? Can a shift toward understanding how to preserve natural ecological relationships facilitate both a more balanced environment and supportive community relationships?
 
BS:      I am glad that you mention the term ‘civilization’ because in my book I identify our understanding of civilization itself as being at the root of the problem. I point out that out of 200,000 years of modern human existence, civilization has only emerged over about the past 6,000 years. More startlingly, Indigenous peoples remained the majority of the world population up until the 1820s. This is a mere two hundred years ago. For me, those who existed prior to civilization were not simply primitive hunters, but rather were Aboriginal people who followed Indigenous beliefs. From my experience meeting Indigenous Elders from all over the world, these ‘original instructions’ from the Creator were common to all. They included admonitions that while we are privileged to experience physical life in order to learn, our simple responsibility is to respect creation and take care of it. Civilization, especially as traced through developments in the Middle East, then Europe, positioned humanity as the central purpose of creation. This manifested as the domination of nature, accumulation of wealth, and exercise of power to compete for resources. So civilization was the repudiation of eons of Indigenous wisdom. It was a fundamental spiritual shift, one that has laid the template for the human systems that dominate the world today. The recovery of a healthy relationship with the environment and amongst one another will not be possible until the mainstream recognizes the truth about what has happened to the Indigenous world, and takes actions to reconcile with that past.
 
SB:      You place great emphasis on the importance of spirituality in one’s worldview. I quote: “Our indigenous values are not easy to maintain in the hostile surroundings of secularism and materialism.” It’s certainly difficult to maintain alternate values to the idolization of power over others and hoarding of wealth in modern times. Yet, my mentor, Elder Pauline Shirt, insisted an urban location doesn’t need to inhibit spiritual practice. This was the focus for her urban ‘Native Way’ school. Challenge to Civilization holds a clear message about the danger inherent in promoting artificial intelligence and monetary systems such as bitcoin, warning we must examine our individual role in returning to a relationship you’ve described as ‘ecolization’. Do you share Pauline’s view that urban locations don’t need to inhibit our spiritual relationship to Earth? Are you concerned about the time left to recover our spiritual relationship to planet Earth and avoid a complete environmental collapse?
 
BS:      The reaction of many people to my suggestion that a return to Indigenous ways is a solution to a sustainable future is the notion that we somehow need to return to ‘primitive’ technologies. That is not the point and not the key. The key is a spiritual revolution—not some unknown turn to artificial intelligence or anarchy, but rather a return to the Indigenous belief system that provided a stable and nurturing way for the vast majority of human experience before the 1820s. One of the main stumbling blocks to doing this is the myth that there has never been any model of human behaviour worth recognizing apart from civilization. Civilization is still defined as humanity’s ‘greatest achievement.’ The proponents of civilization, including the world’s academics, begin history only with the rise of civilization. Anything before that was considered to be ignorant, unprogressive and unworthy. Scholars also insist that Indigenous peoples are merely slow to ‘see the light’ and will all inevitably embrace civilization. In other words, they will revel in dominating and exploiting nature, greedily accumulating wealth, and not hesitating to fight others to preserve or expand that wealth.
 
All of the highly touted accomplishments of civilization—writing, science, institutions and technologies—were not essential in the Indigenous world in the sense that people trusted that the Creator provided all they required. That is why the Indigenous world thrived without all of these inventions of civilization. This does not mean that Indigenous peoples did not use their intelligence, or develop technologies. The difference was that any actions taken were only done after careful spiritual protocols, consultations and considerations of their effects on future generations and non-human beings. Modern technologies are now realities. However, with a spiritual revolution in values, it is theoretically possible to review and unwind all of the dangerous technologies and social practices that are not in accord with Creator’s ‘original instructions.’ Whether this transformation will be possible is another question. However, the fact that the speed of destruction is far outpacing both general awareness and necessary healing actions is concerning.
 
SB:      Every book takes a stance in the midst of the contemporary social and political concerns it is surrounded by. How do you describe the position of Challenge to Civilization and its areas of concern in today’s world?
 
BS:      My motivation in this book came from my personal experience as a residential school survivor and wondering how and why things have come to be with the total dispossession of our Indigenous peoples. I wanted to know what the roots of prejudice and misunderstanding were and how they originated. As an historian, I began to look back in time, venturing beyond the contact of Europeans with Turtle Island. What I discovered was that Europe was once replete with Indigenous cultures, and that these were all destroyed and displaced by so-called ‘great empires’ such as that of the Romans. Continuing to go back further in time, I finally found my answer, and it was eye-opening! Indeed, the roots turned out to be the rise of civilization itself—civilization which we all so adoringly admire. The reason why I believe this is the arrival of civilization and its accompanying values was a clear rejection and repudiation of eons of Indigenous values and relationships that go back to the emergence of modern humans at least 200,000 years ago. Civilization has since laid the template for our modern-day world. But Indigenous peoples were not willing collaborators. It is only a mere 200 years ago, in the 1820s, that Indigenous peoples ceased being the majority of the world population!
 
SB:      Can you offer an idea of the philosophical surrounds for Challenge to Civilization in your experience? What books/speakers most impressed you while you were working on it? Were there any live performances/events/people that you feel influenced this book?
 
BS:      I have spent nearly five decades working with Elders at First Nations University of Canada. This, of course, followed a typical non-Indigenous university education at McGill where, among other things, I studied philosophy—Aristotle, Plato, reason, logic, etc. I have to admit that while I found such subject areas interesting, they did not help much in terms of understanding the deeper aspects of Indigenous (in this case Cree and Saulteaux) philosophy and spirituality. It took a lot of time listening to Elders before I finally understood what they were really saying. In particular I owe my insights to an extraordinary elder, the late Danny Musqua who worked at First Nations University for over 25 years. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of Indigenous teachings of philosophy handed down over the generations, and he took the time to explain them to me in a very systematic way. But there were many other elders as well, and it seems that I always learned something special from each of them. I outlined these teachings in my book The Knowledge Seeker: Embracing Indigenous Spirituality.
 
SB:      Given that you are, essentially, describing a lifetime immersion in the topic of this book, did the book itself seem to fall onto the page quickly, as if it were channelled? Or did you need to put a lot of effort into figuring out its structure? Was there a developmental process? Please elaborate.
 
BS:      This is my sixth book, so I have become a lot more aware over time of the challenges of the writing process. I am glad to be able to say that this was the easiest and quickest one that I have written. The reason is that it was the last of my trilogy on Indigenous spirituality. One thing I have learned is that if one gets seemingly stuck in one place, it is best to pull back and look at another place where progress can be made. Sometimes one feels more inspired to write in another area. Often it is a matter of discovering more source information by going to the library and gathering new research. It can be very refreshing and reinvigorating to talk with someone about your project and aspirations for it. One can come up with an initial outline, but I find that books develop organically. In some ways it is like piecing together a giant puzzle until one arrives at a picture that makes sense and is inspiring.
 
SB:      I can very much appreciate your image of piecing together a puzzle as that is how I describe my own process in writing. Can you pin-point the central idea that links the various sections of this book and why you felt it was important to address this concept in contemporary times? How is it connected to your personal time and place?
 
BS:      If I had to identify a single concept that would be the most valuable, it would be the concept of ‘ecolization.’ Within the prevailing construct, the only understandable framework for explaining how human society evolved is to claim that prior to civilization, humans were merely hunter-gatherers who had no real belief system concepts or knowledge systems. However, if one understands that so-called prehistoric and primitive peoples were in fact Indigenous, then one realizes that they had belief systems and other knowledges that still exist in such groups around the world today. One of the reasons why civilization has refused to recognize the existence and legitimacy of Indigenous beliefs is because they do not support the aspirations and goals of civilization. Ecolization does not place humanity above the rest of creation, nor condone the exploitation of nature in order to amass wealth or oppress others in the process. What I do to make the point that a legitimate system existed prior to civilization is to give it a name. That name—ecolization—represents a world that was far more holistic and balanced. In order to get a clearer understanding of our human history, we must be willing and able to open our eyes and ears to what Indigenous peoples say and stand for.
 
SB:      How does this book fit it the stream of your other writing? Is there a fundamental difference between Challenge to Civilization and your prior work?
 
BS:      Challenge to Civilization is the third in my trilogy on Indigenous Spirituality. The first book The Knowledge Seeker: Embracing Indigenous Spirituality (2016) was encouraged by Elders at First Nations University of Canada. It laid out the fundamental concepts such as the principle that we are spirit beings on a physical journey. It described codes of behaviour such as ‘The Seven Virtues,’ also known as ‘The Seven Grandfather Teachings’. It outlined tools such as spiritual disciplines, including fasting, prayer and meditation, along with ceremonies and their roles. The second publication, Loss of Indigenous Eden and the Fall of Spirituality (2020), was penned to provide an explanation why Indigenous spirituality has become discredited and sidelined. Finally, Challenge to Civilization (2023) looks at the potential role of Indigenous spirituality for the future and concludes that it will be essential in finding the way forward. So the three books provide a rounded view of the nature and significance of Indigenous belief systems.
 
SB:      If Challenge to Civilization were chosen for the list in a graduate course, what discipline do you think it best fits into? (i.e., history, politics, social change, philosophy, other) Would it be used to describe a particular taste in writing, genre, or style? Or does it speak to a specific concept?
 
BS:      One of the main reasons why I was motivated to write this and my other books on spirituality is that there are so few publications that offer an accurate representation of the Indigenous belief system. Books written by anthropologists or philosophers who have never experienced ceremonies, for example, would not have much of a clue about what things are about. The reason for that is that Elders will not share their spiritual insights and wisdom if the questioner has not followed proper protocols. So, the best description I can think of for this type of book is Indigenous spiritual wisdom. I hesitate to say philosophy because of the way in which philosophy has come to be synonymous with rational thinking. Wisdom in my understanding is thought that is guided by spirituality, especially through Elders and ceremony, and therefore supersedes the simply rational. At the same time, it is not irrational, as it is systematic. Being subject to spirituality, it produces a superior level of insight. Similarly, categorizing it under religion does not do justice to the breadth and flexibility of spirituality. However, inevitably it will undoubtedly be categorized by librarians under religious philosophy.
 
SB:      In terms of your development as an authority on this topic, what do you hope this book will achieve? Ignoring any reviews you may have received thus far, do you think Challenge to Civilization will reach a greater audience for your views than you have had so far?
 
BS:      I know that my books have already reached a wide audience as I have received comments from all over the world and have been invited to speak to international conferences. The scope of the subject matter is worldwide. It goes back in time and includes the period prior to civilization in a serious way. It challenges the prevailing ethos of ‘civilization’ in a manner that few scholars within the academy, who are products of civilization themselves, can credibly do. The myths and falsehoods about the world’s Indigenous heritage—one which each and every one of us ultimately shares in our past, is the ‘big lie’ that blinds us to where we going with our current attitudes and practices. We have not yet collectively awakened to the fact that the path we are taking will lead to a very unpleasant destination. It’s an insight to which we all need to awaken.
 
SB:      Thank you, once again, for agreeing to do this interview with me, Dr. Stonechild. It reveals your deep passion for recognizing the importance of ecolization, and puts your devotion to the subject of your book in context.

Blair Stonechild is a member of the Muscowpetung Saulteaux First Nation and is a survivor of the Qu’Appelle Indian Residential School. He obtained his Bachelor’s degree from McGill, and Master’s and Doctorate degrees from University of Regina. In 1976 Blair joined the First Nations University of Canada as its first faculty member and has been Dean of Academics and Executive Director of Development. Major publications include Loyal Till Death: Indians and the North-West Rebellion, (1997); The New Buffalo: Aboriginal Post-secondary Policy in Canada (2006); Buffy Sainte-Marie: It’s My Way (2012), The Knowledge Seeker: Embracing Indigenous Spirituality (2016), Loss of Indigenous Eden and the Fall of Spirituality (2020), and Challenge to Civilization: Indigenous Wisdom and the Future (2024). Blair is married to Sylvia and has three adult children. ​

---

​Sharon Berg attended the Banff School of Fine Arts Writing Studio in 1982 and was accepted to Banff’s Leighton Artist Colony in 1987. She is also an alumni of Humber College’s Writing Program. She did her B.A. in Indigenous Studies at Laurentian U, followed by her B.Ed for Primary Education at U of T. Her M.Ed focused on First Nations Education at York U, and her D.Ed focused on Indigenous Education at UBC. She also received a Certificate in Magazine Journalism from Ryerson U. Sharon founded and operated the international literary E-Zine Big Pond Rumours (2006-2019) and its associated press, which released chapbooks of Canadian poets as prizes for the magazine’s contests. She's published five full books and three chapbooks, working in poetry, fiction, and nonfiction. Her work appears in periodicals across Canada, the USA, Mexico, the UK, the Netherlands, India, Germany, Singapore, and Australia. Her 3rd poetry collection Stars in the Junkyard (Cyberwit 2020) was a Finalist in the 2022 International Book Awards, and her narrative history The Name Unspoken: Wandering Spirit Survival School (Big Pond Rumours Press 2019) won a 2020 IPPY Award for Regional Nonfiction. When she retired from teaching, she opened Oceanview Writers Retreat in Charlottetown (Terra Nova National Park) Newfoundland.